And then someone asked me why I thought there was only one right way to go about it. And I didn't have an answer. Maybe there isn't one. Well, almost certainly there isn't one. When is there ever only one right way to go about things? Maybe I just need to replace all those "we"s with "I"s and the let the rest of the world do their own thing. Sorry, Spinoza.
And then someone handed me a book while I was waiting in the newspaper office for edits. And I found someone else who didn't have an answer. What he did have, though, were some painfully accurate observations. The book was a collection of essays, Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, by Chuck Klosterman.
[W]henever I meet dynamic, nonretarded Americans, I notice that they all seem to share a single unifying characteristic: the inability to experience the kind of mind-blowing, transcendent romantic relationship they perceive to be a normal part of living. And someone needs to take the fall for this.He lays the blame, not unreasonably, on John Cusack. Really just indicting irrational romances in general, Klosterman's contention goes back at least to Madame Bovary.
This is why I will never be satisfied by a woman, and this is why the kind of woman I tend to find attractive will never be satisfied by me. We will both measure our relationship against the prospect of fake love.Later, he discusses feminist literary criticism, concluding that the truly damaging stories aren't the ones that promote a "latent social code."
We don't need to worry about people unconsciously "absorbing" archaic secret messages when they're six years old; we need to worry about all the entertaining messages people are consciously accepting when they're twenty-six. They're the ones that get us, because they're the ones that we try to turn into life.Well, I'm not twenty-six yet. Good thing I'm thinking about this now.
18 comments:
I disagree with something; I don't know what or why, yet. It is a most intriguing subject, though.
Let me know when you think of something. It's so hard to find people who will argue with me...
It's ok, K-Barr, I will argue with you... Not on this one though. From experience I know it is distracting to date in college. In our society yes, most of us are too young, if we really do want an education. Why do we date though? I'm convinced that it's because we are selfish and we use others to get what we think we need... maybe. Have you read, I Kissed Dating Goodbuy? That might answer a few of your questions.
If your philosophy were really true of you, with preternatural maturity and personality fixed since six, it would have to be true of those with less stable identities. So either you've gone too far or you've given up too easily.
You cannot lump everyone into the "all" category.Some people are ready to meet Mr. Right, some are not, yet they do anyway. It is pretty random. Personally, I feel college is a time to explore people, and relationships, as well as academics. After you graduate, you'll be too busy with your job to date. And then, before you know it, time is passing by......College is a good time to explore, not necessarily time to get lost in a deep relationship, but maybe that would happen. But it is a good time to figure out the type of person you could spend the rest of your life with. And, maybe, it would be one and the same.....I think what you are seeing is how quickly people commit to a "serious" relationship, only to have it disintegrate in 6 mos. or 1 year's time.
Ah, so this is what it takes to generate discussion. I think my primary contention with the "getting to know someone" tack is that the premise behind dating is largely one of pretence. If all we do is go on dates for fun, all we end up doing is getting to know people on that superficial level, relying on the persona they project. To get beyond that, we have to form more intimate relationships, which inevitably become "serious."
I would hold that the dating relationship, especially when conducted with no intention of future commitment, is unnecessary. There has to be a way to get to know people without throwing up these artificially contrived roles. Seriously, let's think about this. If I go on a date, it's his job to make me feel special, and it's my job to look nice and generate pleasant conversation. Maybe we don't hit it off, and so we have to go through the acrobatics of making everything platonic again. Or maybe we really like each other, and see more of each other, and hang out with each other all the time, and suddenly, we find ourselves in a serious relationship. There's no avoiding it.
Dating is meaningless without intentionality. Relationships are dynamic, and so they are always going forward or deteriorating. It's almost impossible to remain in limbo between casual interest and commitment for very long. This is why dating at this stage in life makes so little sense to me.
Arranged marriage it is then!
You make a simple thing too complicated. First, you have to admit that a romantic relationship is something you want. Isn't it? I have always respected those who say that they're not going to pursue romance because they want to focus on soemething else like school or God. It always reminds me though of a dieter saying that they are going to forego certain foods for the sake of being thinner.
It is always there though. The dieter remains occasionally focused on the food he can't have, aware of the food, craving the food even as he diets. It is equally inherent in your comments that you want to be in a romantic relationship, but are either foregoing that for somethine else of perceived greater value, or are too intimidated by all that is involved in making it happen. Maybe both?
When I look back at my own college experience I shudder as I remember some of the "lounge lizards" holding hands, making out, and staring into each others eyes into the wee hours of the morning. I was repulsed by that sort of lose-your-head romance, and I knew that I didn't want any part of it. I also remember being too intimidated and frankly frightened to overtly pursue Sarah even after I had long confessed to myself that she was the girl for me. Relationships are so nuanced and awkward. It was too risky, and what if I botched it? Things would never go back to how they had been before. I had the sense that I had only one bullet in the chamber, and thus I was afraid to take the shot. If I missed, or heaven forbid, winged her, I couldn't just wipe the board clean and start over.
For some people that's no problem. I call them wolves. They survey the herd of potential romance, and single out the weak or the injured. If one gets away, another will do just as well. They look for weakness and exploit it, but you are a big game trophy hunter. You are looking for the best specimen you can find- a real cherry of a man (Sincere solid relationship with Christ, goals in life, smart, funny, and dashing like a hero from one of those silly british romances you and Angelica like to watch).
...but it all begins with you confessing that it is something you want.
As for college folk being too young, I say "hogwash". You're just plain wrong on that one, and I'm confident history and numerous testimonials (mine included) will support me in that statement. We are not that far removed in our culture from when adolescents were taking vows, and you want to say that college is too young. What's next?
Don't try and justify your cowardice and inhibitions by being a critic of the whole scene. Don't be a hater, if I may borrow some hip-hop vernacular. Too harsh?
Not too harsh at all. That's essentially the point I was trying to make above--dating with intentionality. Casual dating just does not make sense. But approaching dating with an end in mind at this point would make me just another "ring-by-spring"er. Intention, at least on the female end, does not go over well, which is why I have paused to question what we're doing, what we think we should be doing, and how we're doing it.
I think, in relation to our lifespans, it's safe to say that we reach maturity at a later age than we used to. We don't reach full cognitive functionality until our early twenties. I would never say that any relationship will not work out or be mutually satisfying simply because of the age at which it was initiated. But I have seen many poor decisions made that I would attribute to a view of the world that has yet to be enlarged sufficiently, and I think the perspective that comes through aging is the primary way we broaden our horizons.
What similar roles -- in modern or historical society -- weren't 'artificially contrived'? Is there a natural, Platonic way for young men and women to relate to each other? Watering a servant's camels? Being signed away like a father's chattel? Exchanging witty ripostes in well-appointed drawing rooms?
If all roles are contrived pretense, the real question is what values they represent. Casual dating reflects a culture of muscular autonomy and self-determination: American culture, like it or not. The values are rejected by those who seek a relationship with better foundation, but the roles can perhaps be redeemed.
I think you just made this point responding to Josh, but I promise I wrote it before -- it seems your quarrel isn't with dating in college per se; it's with excessive commitment in college, and dating ever.
If there is no platonic way for men and women to relate to each other, then I should not be at college right now. The manner in which we conduct our lives today (educating women alongside men with the assumption that both possess equal intellectual capacities) is historically unprecedented, and thus merits thoughtful and deliberate examination. We, as a culture, have worked for more than a century now to create a semblance of gender equality, and approaching college as a medium for dating undermines that. There was a point in time when universities were solely the domain of men, and these men attended these institutions solely to receive an education. Now that campuses have been overrun by women, college has suddenly become more a matter of coupling than actually learning anything. This is where I find the dilemma.
If all roles are contrived pretense, then we can contrive new ones that make more sense. I don't feel so chained to my culture that I can't alter it. I 'm autonomous and self-determined too, and I think it's important to point out the inconsistencies I see and to try to avoid getting caught up in the current of current culture while thinking critically about what direction we're flowing in.
Yikes, I meant Platonic, not platonic. I didn't even realize the possibility of the pun... Wow.
So for the sake of anyone who was confused by my ill-chosen words, I do think there are appropriate platonic ('free from physical desire') ways to interact, but I do not think there is a single Platonic way to interact (one perfect, best, uncontrived system to discover). Sorry about that!
Wanna go on a date?
I do want to add an additional aspect to this that occurred to me, if anyone still cares. I find it hard to reconcile the idea of Christian charity towards one another with the dating ethos. If we are actually all kindred, all brothers and sisters in Christ, why would we submit each to such cruel and selfish evaluations? How could I as a Christian ever say to another, "You're not good enough for me"? How could I justify getting to know people solely to evaluate whether they will fit my needs?
I don't know if there's a better way for the whole world, but there has got to be a better way for me.
Outstanding debate.
A few things though, Kaitlin. That colleges and universities were, for centuries, largely meant for men is incontestable. That they were meant solely for education is perversely false. Colleges, especially early ones, are social merit badges sewn onto the most visible sleeve. Unless you're a doctor, voice major or chemist all you're doing is networking and "learning" things that you will forget as soon as the testing is over. In your particular field of study, I imagine you spend an inordinate amount of time studying and glorifying many folk who never attended college.
It really doesn't mean anything. I'm an educated fool. But take my sage advice...At no other time in my life was I presented with a more diverse and quality array of potential mates than at college. Similar age, similar world view and most-importantly, similar faith. It might be abrasive to the construct you have of what a college education should be, but trust me...the people are really the only things that survive your 4 years there and there will be lots you'll wish you'd gotten to know better.
And I would definitely agree. The networking aspect of college is precisely what I'm working toward here. Do I want to leave college with a wide array of friendships and connections, or do I want a string of ex-boyfriends? I think I, or college students in general, only have so much social time. If I'm constantly looking to go out and try people on for size during the weekend, I'm losing the opportunity for lasting and meaningful interactions.
I know that book-learning isn't all there is to life, but I don't want to see it diminished to the point of irrelevancy. The ostensible reason we come to college is to get an education, and there is no reason why it cannot remain our primary reason. It's a common refrain on this campus: that's a pretty expensive dating service.
I have so much to say that I don't even know where to begin!
I like you fell into the "Who am I to say if you are good enough for me." (Especially as a Christian) But what I have learned through many relationships is that you are not saying whether or not they are 'good' for you as much as 'right' for you. By changing those words you shift your focus from judging the person to seeking their compatibility to yours. This allows you to focus on the purpose of dating.
For your question: "why would we submit each to such cruel and selfish evaluations?" I have to say that it is our jobs as Christians to evaluate every relationship that we have to the harshest degrees because we are seeking perfection in that we want to be like Jesus, and in order to do that we need to surround ourselves with people that will be good role models and help us to achieve this. Another thing is that it actually teaches you a lot about who you are as a person. We need to submit ourselves to see how others view us and take that as a learning experience and evaluate what they are saying/ thinking. I honestly think that if you do not do this then you are not ready for a romantic relationship.
I also think that people just try to hard. I agree that they try hard to look for someone who will be their match. Then when they do find someone they try hard to keep an image of someone who they are not. I believe that dating shouldn't be so complicated. Speaking as someone who is currently in a relationship after having a handful I have got to say that casual dating was a big help! What casual dating did for me was to teach me what I am looking for in a man and what I am not to the point that by just being friends with them I could determine this, and not even have to casually date anymore. This also saves me from going into a serious relationship that is just not meant to be.
Now, I think you should think about your reasons for coming to college. Was it really for education? Or are you one of those girls who expects to find the right person while in college? I think that it is interesting to think of these things because if you did come to college to focus on education then why worry about looking for a romantic relationship. If it does have to do with looking for your future mate then I agree, very 'expensive dating service'! I believe that for most people it is a combination of both and that has a lot to do with society. . . and who is to say what is right. . . society doesn't tend to focus on the individual.
When it comes to dating I think there are standards that must be kept that are not only for the individual but also for the couple. These are: being true to oneself even if it means being a dork and being scared of rejection- at least you are being honest, be explicit with your expectations/concerns/ideals/values/beliefs- lay it all on the table don't leave in bones in the closet that will come out later, being able to communicate about anything including how you are feeling and how you react or respond to things/ what you do and don't like about things/the relationship. . . This is just a start, something that for me became practice on first dates and saved me time and energy.
It is also important to understand that RELATIONSHIPS ARE WORK and as with anything that requires work what you and your partner put into it is what you will get out.
This is only part of what I believe and practice. But I feel like it is a good foundation/basis for everyone.
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